love everyone saying get rid of lowsec because 0.0 is soo much more relevant, the same argument can be said about null, its pointless, pvp is tedious and far too much effort to find a fight, solo in null doesn't happen, and tidi is aids, and so is powerblocks with supercap blobs.

High Sec is the problem and you can't get high sec people to understand that no matter what you do. Recent history is proof.

In the past we've had discussions here about how unbalanced high sec incursions where. I saw it 1st hand, I'd fly with ISN (Incursion Shiney Network) can at peak cloak a good 180 isk per hour not even counting CONCORD LP flying a machariel. That same Mach struggled to make half as much per hour in null except on the very rare occasion that a null incursion was nearby, and not even then because you have to clear null incursions quickly because they become strategic headaches, no farming like in high sec.

Back then you seriously needed to rat in a super carrier to match what you could do in sub caps in high sec incursions. A Carrier back then struggled to break 150 mil per hour.

The usual high sec partisans jumped in with all manner of nonsense defenses of a measurable and noticeable flaw in the game, but one of them stuck at as more nonsense than the other:

"If the problem is low income in null sec, JUST BUFF NULL!!!, Leave Brittany high sec alone"!!!!

We tried to explain to these...people... that buffing null sec income would be bad for ALL of us, null sec income comes from anomalies that spew liquid isk and from mining ores not found in great supply in other places. Buffing null would hurt everyone everywhere else. No, the problem is high sec, fix high sec.

CCP ignored this. They changed carriers and super carriers in ways that inadvertently turned them into anomaly clearing monsters, and the buffed the Rorqual to an insane degree. That also upped the escalation chances from anomalies that had the affect of increasing the supply of dead space gear and blueprints.

In short, they took the High Seccers advice and "just buffed null".......

Very shortly the ill affects made themselves clear. Because or Rorqs, high sec mining became damn near useless. Cheap deadspace battleships filled the skies of high sec and the rest of new eden while the high sec tech1 BS builder goes broke. Some Deadpsace gear is cheaper than tech2. When high sec anom runners get escalations they are sometimes like "why bother, the loot is trash now" etc etc.


We tried hard to explain to the high sec folks that this would happen, tried to explain to them that a buff to null would hurt THEM worse than a nerf to high would. But they were too short sighted.

Don't be short sighted like them. Low sec's chief problem is that there really is no pressing financial/pecuniary reason to leave high sec once you can run lvl 4 missions or fly a beginner level incursion boat like a Maelstrom or Megathron or follow the Burner Mission Plan. That means that ONLY the more adventurous players leave, but it should be the adventurous AND the greedy. Fix that and you go a long way towards fixing low sec....and null.

You haven't explained how this benefits me as a high-sec player. So before accusing me of being shortsighted perhaps you'll enlighten me as to how moving L4s to low-sec without CONCORD benefits me. I'm not sure how Rorq mining screws me over. I don't mine, have no plans to mine - and everything has been dropping in price. This is bad how exactly...?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here - I just really don't get how your "QOL" changes are supposed to benefit me.

Dissentivize kiting with snake set mordus ships.

Oh...they'll move beyond high sec all right.

They'll move right out of EVE.

Love it or hate it, high sec needs to have reasonable rewards. High sec players are people, not puppies. If you smack them with a rolled up newspaper, they don't stop peeing on the floor. They find a new place to live that will let them pee on the floor.

And also love it or hate it. EVE can't survive a mass exodus of players, which is essentially what you are suggesting CCP do to itself.

Mr Epeen

Lower than low, lower than NPC null, lower than sov-null, lower than WH.

Was I too honest?

They have the right idea with the variable bonuses on the industrial arrays.

The entire game right now is too hinged on big-ticket content with big-ticket objectives, leading the actual number of people with hands on the 'generate content' levers to be really small. CCP keeps making this worse by repeatedly focusing on regions which lend themselves to this sort of play, while whole-sale ignoring regions which should empower small, scrappy entities. Hi-Sec being more profitable than it should be is a band-aid which be painful to remove until they fix Low/NPC null.

I...I just don't know what to say. It must be so hard for an obligate high-sec player to adapt to not having income which overshadows most of the rest of the game. Why, with all the expenses and dangers that go a long with living in HS, HS income should be competitive with the rest of the game, right?

Its not about benefiting anyone. Its about rationalizing the game systems/mechanics.

this.

i dont really see any need to change much in lowsec apart from add in pirate faction warfare

No, you trolling fafo.

Read the thread.

I want JFs out of LS entirely, and Im not the only one.
Drastic? Yes, perhaps, but its clear to everyone how JFs are exploiting the hell out of LS/citadel/cyno/geography mechanics.

I want to save the economy.
Jita is a cancer killing the economy.
Everyday, entity powers wax and wane throughout EVE, yet everyday, Jitas trade value just grows and grows.
Its already many thousands of % greater than the combined trade value of any number of entire regions combined.
Jita is a tumor that as it grows ever larger, sucks more and more content out of the rest of the game.

Wake up, man. Put your own interests aside for even one second and think of the health of the game.

JFs are the primary culprit of material transport past/over/through the LS "blood barrier" between HS and NS, and back.

A) This material is not being destroyed sufficiently, anywhere, in transit.
Hence, Jita.

B) Yes, I understand your question/point about overall destruction, but that is currently happening after most of the constituent materials have passed through Jita atleast once. Note: Through Jita. Not other markets.

C) Material transport is so safe, hence cheap and easy, across all sectors and by various mechanics, that a disproportionate amount ends up in Jita, no matter how far its origin.

D) Jita is strangling the diversity/localisation/opportunity of sector/region markets.
This is not a result of player behavior. That is only a symptom.

The problem is LS not functioning as a barrier between HS and NS.

h
Think about that.

Are you so naive that you cant see the problem with one mall in EVE that utterly eclipses all others by tens of thousands of trade value %?

If you cant see the problem in that, leave EVE.
EVE is about competition, interaction and conflict.

Jita is an NPC center of trade, enabled by failed mechanics, down all trade lanes to and from.

Its an abomination.
Empires rise and fall everyday in EVE, yet Jita only grows.

Jita is proof positive EVE systems are not working.

If highsec consisted of 4 Islands, one for each empire, surrounded by lowsec then the dominance of jita would fade somewhat. It would remain however for as long as nullsec groups continue to use it to source supplies. To be fair though, who can blame them for using an available market to source goods instead of going through the more painful process of building everything yourself. Having said that, if the 4 empires are split from each other logical price differences might emerge. This could lead groups to use Dodixie to source gallente ships for example, though jita may remain the faction mod hub.

There are other things that should probably change such as probing being made harder so that its both more difficult to pinpoint people but also means good probers stand out a lot more than bad ones. It could even be argued to ban the use of cynos in low but allow caps to still use gate but that would be a bitter pill to swallow for null JF pilots.

For example I think the lack of local in Wormholes makes a lot of people feel safer than they actually are. Similarly people who aren't used to getting ganked through a wormhole, or don't understand their spawn mechanics, may feel safer out in an isolated null system than is actually the case.

lowsec is fine only problem is cyno and drops...

obviously cyno cannot be removed but dropping 5 carriers on procurer come on...

Remove cynos. Player base behavior will change to adapt.

I didnt ask you in the context I asked him.

Citadel bashing, POS bashing, combat escalations, do not need cynos or caps
The same happens in HS, under even stricter engagement rules, everyday, without cynos or caps.

If caps are removed from LS, as I propose, you wont need caps to counter them.

We know that Dominion did the OPPOSITE of all of that, and in dramatic fashion too. CCP (like Salvos does with his posts) made the mistake of thinking you can engineer people's behavior. You can't, people are opportunistic and devious and will find a way around your game design intentions.

That being said I knod of hope CCP does some of the things Salvos wants to see done. It's clear that you can't just explain things to folks like that, they need to see the bad results of a thing to learn.

Answer me this:
-When LS has cynos and caps as does NS, but not bubbles or smartbombs, (which you have stated dont stop cynos), what is the goddam point of LS?

HTFU, meat-puppet shill.

EVE is aggressive. Deal with it.

Explain cynos/caps in LS, in 817 systems, where you dont need cynos/caps to gatecamp, run content, to PvP, or bypass bubbles, with restrictions on engagement, where NS neighbors can drop on you with caps, when you can also run cynos/caps in the 3400+systems around it?

Post-change, you dont have to worry about blops reking your cyno.

EVE is a machine. It has no life of its own.
Nor is it a perfect machine.
It has flaws.

It is created and populated by people whom are fallible.

That CCP decides what they do with their machine, does not mean their decisions are right, rational or justified.

There is a distinction between the games mechanical parts, and its organic parts (us as players and CCP).

In my view, cynos/caps in LS are a dysfunctional part of the machine.

NS exists over 3400 systems in which to use cynos/caps.
LS exists as a slim border between HS and NS of only 817 systems.

I have at length explained the inequity between NS dropping into LS vs LS dropping into NS.
I have at length explained that LS content, nor gatecamps, do not require cynos/caps.

Caps/cynos, rationally, mechanically, belong in NS.

I understand the misgivings of LS/NS (whichever or, or however organised) about losing cynos/caps in LS for whatever purpose they currently enjoy it as. Some expressed overtly, some vested.

But caps/cynos, rationally, mechanically, belong in NS.
NPC Null is ideal if you want LS style non-sov. Its a vast emptiness.
Player Sov is ideal if you want conflict.

These spaces already exist for cyno/cap play, without restrictions.

Why then are they staying in LS?
Why are they arguing for LS to keep cynos/caps, when NS is out there already, with no restrictions?

Protip: Check the topic of the thread.

This is a troll right? I mean, c'mon, he's been unironically telling people to HTFU while simultaneously whining about the "unjust" cynos in low sec and "unfair" mechanics on a forum alt for over 5 pages now.

LS players want a non-cyno, sub-cap zone to PvP in and intercept NS/HS material transport in.

The insane volume of material transport between HS and NS, passing/cynoing through LS with impunity (under a cap umbrella), is support enough.

Or do you really think LS doesnt want to pirate the hell out of that enormous bounty?

3. Gah... I'd hate to be forced to escort trade runs. I can't imagine many who'd like that sort of job. It might end up happening if the change were made but it doesn't seem like a positive development... having to protective fleet-blob your freighters to scare away pirates.

Well, structure grind exists.

Charge a fee as an escort.

You can use Tornados in HS, as is right now.
Infact you can do the same in LS too as it is right now.

So it seems insurance is the remaining issue.

Seems a fair tradeoff to me in LS where PvP is systemically less restricted than in HS.

For smaller volumes, you can use traditional MWD/Cloak, webbing, tank/align, T2cloak etc tactics just like usual on a variety of hulls for gate transit (especially as there are no bubbles in LS).

Heh, killboard epeening.

Removing cynos/caps from LS will increase PvP content, not reduce it.

JFs are making a mockery of LS, and largely benefit only large/wealthy/older corps.
JFs are a 90day train just to sit in, and 7+bil off the market to buy.
That is well beyond the capacity of newer players.

You dont need JFs for that in Ls.

The issue with removing Cynos/JF's from lowsec is that the null-sec empires that want to transfer goods will do them using large fleets.

People won't try to move stuff with small or unguarded transport... because it will always be killed. Transport will ONLY happen with large groups.

This might create some large fleet battles in low sec. The problem is it will kill all the small/unaffiliated groups in low sec and null sec because they won't be able to move goods. And the increase in camps will also put a huge damper on FW activity.

You're wiping out much of the small group pvp which in my mind makes low sec different from null-sec... in exchange for a few fleet battles in low-sec (most of which will be between large null sec groups since most low sec pirates are probably not pulling together 100-man fleets)

To me, this is a problem. Large fleet combat belongs mostly in Null. Small-gang/solo combat is how low sec works. Turning low-sec into a more annoying null isn't a good solution.

JFs lol-cynoing through LS with billions in cargo provide no content to LS.

Just provides convenient profit for entities running them, with a negligible chance of interception in LS.

Ofc I understand that.
Makes you rich for leveraging HS markets vs NS benefits.

But does this justify lol-cynoing through LS in 7+bil JFs + billions in cargo value with almost no chance of interception?

That NS resources can access HS markets (Jita/Forge) and back by passing LS with little to no risk of interception?
In HS CONCORD covers you. In LS you lol-cyno past. In NS, your home.

Wtf is then even the point of LS?

Its made a mockery of, daily, by billions in cynoing value over their heads that they cant reach.

LS PvE content does not require caps.
LS hauling does not require cynos.
LS gatecamps do not require caps.
LS cynos bypass LS gates.
NS has far more caps than LS.

Your move.

PS: Lol at me "being back" in this thread. I never left.

Prove that.

Fun fact.

LS is not NS.

Who asked you?

How many shill alts are going to intercept questions directed to someone else?

PS: Player Empires rise and fall in EVE, daily, yet Jita/The Forge just gets more and more prominent.

Yes.
Which is why LS is made a mockery of by JFs.

That depends on how many times you presume to inadequately answer questions addressed to someone else.

Is this supposed to mean something?

Ganking does not make a mockery of CONCORD, cos CONCORD always wins.

Try again.

Not that this has anything to do with JFs in LS.

What should Amarr have "felt"?

Wtf are you even on about?

Have you not seen the figures on Jita/Forge?

You have no problem with a a single NPC HS region and system housing the overwhelming majority of trade and production THROUGHOUT EVE.

Are we even playing the same game?